With a little luck, we'll be able to learn the outcome and still get to bed at at normal time. One of the many benefits of living in Hawaii. (Some complain that the election may be over and the winner announced before our polls close, but Hey, we can't have it all!)
You are hysterical. I tried calling you today, but I am sure that you couldn't hear the phone because you were too busy listening to the radio, checking the internet and watching the news.
Anna- Please tell me how you are okay with the fact that he is going to tax you and I through the wazoo and you are okay with it!! All of his other policies aside, we have worked so hard and we are going to have so much taken from us. Tell me how you have come to terms or can justify that. I can't seem to! I hate him with the passion because of his views on partial birth abortion...I can't get over it....it is truly the most inhumane thing I can think of! But tell me how you can get past the tax issue, I need some help with that because I am going to need medication for that.
Sarah, I don't know if you were just being facetious, but in case you were serious, the thing that rocked my world view and made me rethink money and wealth and my relationship to it was 1. re-reading King Benjamin's speech multiple times and 2. reading Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. It completely altered my life. It really did. And that is how I am able to be fine with paying taxes. Money isn't "ours". All Rob's talents and my talents and our advantages in life have been given too us strictly through the grace of God and through tremendous blessings. Not everyone is given such a good deal in this life. And the way I see it now, the government does a better job than my church at helping more people who are down and out on their luck. My church tries the best it can, but reaches limited number of people. Life is about one thing: helping others. Period. I don't care why or how a person is being helped so long as they are being helped. If they milk the system they can asnwer to God someday, but I don't worry about it. So anyway that is how I can rest easy and not worry about Rob's salary going to taxes. I liked this quote, by Oliver Wendell Holmes, "I like paying taxes. I pay for civilization." I feel that way. I'm not trying to convert you, just letting you know how I feel.
hmm..this is a tough one. I think the desire to help people is great and we should always be looking to serve others. But when you say you think the government is better than the church at using money to help people, that's getting a little strange to me. What are the examples/comparisons showing the U.S. is more efficient/successful than the church?
And King Benjamin teaches us alot, sure, but I can go even more old school, back to the war in heaven. Didn't Satan say his plan was to force people to do what was right, to take choice away and ensure the desired outcome? That plan was rejected, it wasn't God's way. Free agency to essential, how can that not be applied here? Should people not have the ability to do what they will with their own money? Should the government take that choice away and do with it what it sees fit? That is not only a strange desire to surrender free agency as well as a strange faith in the government. Look at the state of our country, the government isn't the best when it comes to fiscal responsibility.
Shandra works with 'rich' people (donors) on a daily basis and sees the good they want to do with their hard earned money and the generosity they have. Why should the choice and opportunity be taken from them and instead controlled by the government?
We came across this website during all the socialism talk recently. It isn't official church, but appears to have some legitimate material on it. Pres. Benson talking about the concept of socialism and how it is incompatible with man's liberty and at odds with gospel principles. Check it out if you're interested.
The site is: www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/ a-prophet-declares-redistribution -of-wealth-is-socialism/
Audio of Benson: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGAaOATLLrg
Anna- I was totally serious. I am glad to hear how you have come to the conclusion you have although I totally don't agree with it. I think the church is perfect in its welfare program. I think if the government ran their welfare program like the church it would be perfect. The church requires something back from those requiring welfare, the government does not. The church encourages self-reliance, the government does not. I know that the day will come and we will have to live the law of concecration, but at that time everyone will do their part to contribute. I have a really hard time giving of our hard earned money to some white trash wife beater who sits at home all day just to recieve a welfare check that we gave him. The Democrats don't want the poor to succeed, think about it. They need to keep the poor poor. That is how they get elected. If it weren't for Obama's promises of a "tax cut/welfare check" to the poor there is no way he would have won.
I was not trying to belittle the church's efforts. I think the church is doing a marvelous job, but they don't at this point reach all people who need help. They just can't. There are far too many people in need, sadly. I don't think the government does a perfect job but I would be ashamed to get rid of food stamps, medicaid, medicare, and CHIP. They are life savers to people who have no other safety net and often don't have the first clue how to be self reliant because they are broken by circumstance. (They say now that the first 8 years of life can make or break a person.) I am all for making the programs more efficient, but I never want them to vanish. I want more people to have access to good healthcare and decent food and good wages and college education. I have no trouble supporting those programs with tax money. (Currently I am in debt to those programs: 2 births, 1 pediatric surgery, 4 years of pediatric care, 2 years of obgyn care, 2 years of good food to eat, and subsidized loans and Pell grants made it possible for us to start our family and further Rob's education. I owe the government of this country a huge debt of gratitude and money.) Again my view of self-sufficency and the role of money in my life was totally revamped and shattered and reformed after reading Approaching Zion. The mainstream Mormon view of taxes and hard work that is so prevelant these days doesn't jive with my world view. It used to. I used to think exactly like you Sarah and Christian. Sarah, you can vouch for that. I really and truly would recommend Approaching Zion. It is marvelous. The GA's called NIbley the Prophet to the prophets. He doesn't mince words and he lays out the clear case. He gives a pretty clear picture of what God expects of us and how he thinks of wealth. He is a clear thinking amazing man who really illuminates Christ's teachings on money and work and blessings. Like I said, it really changed my life. I just wish I could more fully live up to the standards laid out. (And Christian try your war in heaven argument out on Gay marriage and abortion).
Also Sarah, I totally reject the notion that Dems don't want the poor to succeed, and that he never would have one if he didn't want to alter the tax distribution. I totally reject it. Just talk in depth with an Obama supporter some time. There is WAY more to my support of Obama than my rejection of trickle down economics. WAY MORE.
Again, Anna I totally disagree. I don't think anyone would ever try and take away benefits such as food stamps, medicaid, etc. At least, I would never say that. It saved us for 4 years. BUT there are major probelems with the system. It doesn't encourage people to better their lives. If someone goes and gets a job at Walmart they get kicked off the system. So they figure I get more money from the government than I do from working. They can't take it away, but you need to require people are earning it. The church reaches millions and millions of people in need. After any disaster the church is sometimes one of the first organiztions in action. I would so much rather give my money to the welfare program in the church because I think the government is the worst place for my money to go. I don't trust the government with squat. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. It is nice to have the freedoms to speak our mind...lets pray that never gets taken away from us!
I just want to point out that studies this year showed that conservatives are actually more generous with their money than liberals. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/26/AR2008032602916_pf.html
The Law of Consecration is the ultimate goal and can and will be implemented with perfect leadership (Christ as our ultimate governor) and a more perfected people (when the rich and poor both understand the law). We are warned (in the Book of Mormon) about giving too much power to leaders who are flawed. Mandatory giving through taxes strips me of agency and satisfaction that I get from giving of my own will. I believe it is inconsistent with principles of self reliance and the process of developing charity if we are compelled to give taxes and not allowed to give when we don't have to.
I still love you Anna :) and respect your passion. We're just all wired differently!
Danielle, I totally agree with some of your points. (Taxes aren't charity in my mind. Charity is how you love/judge your fellow men). I just don't think that we can have a country without taxes and I think some Government programs have real merit. School lunch for one. Some kids would starve without it, which is very sad. A country that has no safety net (wefare)/schools/health care/infrastructure for it's poor ends up like Liberia or the Hindu Kush regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan and that kind of poverty and ignorance is something I don't feel good about. Hence the quote: "I feel good about paying taxes. They pay for civilization."
Let's quickly look at abortion- (another road maybe we shouldn't go down?)Freedom and free agency was given to every human. When a person creates another human, that new human has the same rights of the human that created it. The right to life until God see their time is finished, for one. Humans don't gain freedoms at the age of accountability, leaving everything until then up to their parent. They have them from the time they are created.
For gay marriage, the war in heaven argument may or may not be the best approach...but either way, the general authorities have clearly spoken about it in the past months, are they just following 'mainstream Mormonism' too?
Lastly, the whole idea of trying to live higher laws via our highly imperfect government is so strange to me. ie, giving up your money so they can be a kind of charitable governor over everyone. And the idea of money not being 'ours' is fine. But it's God's, not the government's. Am i missing something? Is the government God's Kingdom on earth or the church?
One more thing to consider. There are many charities that will go bankrupt. There are many deserving recipients who depend on those charities... That is sad to me! I hope Obama will prove me wrong. I hope he will be more moderate. But it is like saying the sky is blue when it is raining outside. We can only judge on his past and frankly his past terrifies the heck out of me. I am done talking now!
Wow, Christian, I just listened to Pres. Benson's talk that you posted here. A prophetic warning that is so relevant to what we are watching unfold right now. Nobody can deny that the left wants to take us down a path towards (more) socialism. Where will it end and at what point will people say you've gone too far? There will always be more people who need hand outs. The tax burden gets heavier and heavier and with that, personal liberties are lost, people are corrupted, government excercises more control in every aspect of society. We all should be very nervous.
16 comments:
I LOVE it!
With a little luck, we'll be able to learn the outcome and still get to bed at at normal time. One of the many benefits of living in Hawaii. (Some complain that the election may be over and the winner announced before our polls close, but Hey, we can't have it all!)
You are hysterical. I tried calling you today, but I am sure that you couldn't hear the phone because you were too busy listening to the radio, checking the internet and watching the news.
Anna- Please tell me how you are okay with the fact that he is going to tax you and I through the wazoo and you are okay with it!! All of his other policies aside, we have worked so hard and we are going to have so much taken from us. Tell me how you have come to terms or can justify that. I can't seem to! I hate him with the passion because of his views on partial birth abortion...I can't get over it....it is truly the most inhumane thing I can think of! But tell me how you can get past the tax issue, I need some help with that because I am going to need medication for that.
Sarah, I don't know if you were just being facetious, but in case you were serious, the thing that rocked my world view and made me rethink money and wealth and my relationship to it was 1. re-reading King Benjamin's speech multiple times and 2. reading Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. It completely altered my life. It really did.
And that is how I am able to be fine with paying taxes. Money isn't "ours". All Rob's talents and my talents and our advantages in life have been given too us strictly through the grace of God and through tremendous blessings. Not everyone is given such a good deal in this life. And the way I see it now, the government does a better job than my church at helping more people who are down and out on their luck. My church tries the best it can, but reaches limited number of people. Life is about one thing: helping others. Period. I don't care why or how a person is being helped so long as they are being helped. If they milk the system they can asnwer to God someday, but I don't worry about it. So anyway that is how I can rest easy and not worry about Rob's salary going to taxes. I liked this quote, by Oliver Wendell Holmes, "I like paying taxes. I pay for civilization." I feel that way. I'm not trying to convert you, just letting you know how I feel.
hmm..this is a tough one. I think the desire to help people is great and we should always be looking to serve others. But when you say you think the government is better than the church at using money to help people, that's getting a little strange to me. What are the examples/comparisons showing the U.S. is more efficient/successful than the church?
And King Benjamin teaches us alot, sure, but I can go even more old school, back to the war in heaven. Didn't Satan say his plan was to force people to do what was right, to take choice away and ensure the desired outcome? That plan was rejected, it wasn't God's way. Free agency to essential, how can that not be applied here? Should people not have the ability to do what they will with their own money? Should the government take that choice away and do with it what it sees fit? That is not only a strange desire to surrender free agency as well as a strange faith in the government. Look at the state of our country, the government isn't the best when it comes to fiscal responsibility.
Shandra works with 'rich' people (donors) on a daily basis and sees the good they want to do with their hard earned money and the generosity they have. Why should the choice and opportunity be taken from them and instead controlled by the government?
We came across this website during all the socialism talk recently. It isn't official church, but appears to have some legitimate material on it. Pres. Benson talking about the concept of socialism and how it is incompatible with man's liberty and at odds with gospel principles. Check it out if you're interested.
The site is:
www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/
a-prophet-declares-redistribution
-of-wealth-is-socialism/
Audio of Benson:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGAaOATLLrg
peace-
christian & shandra
Anna- I was totally serious. I am glad to hear how you have come to the conclusion you have although I totally don't agree with it. I think the church is perfect in its welfare program. I think if the government ran their welfare program like the church it would be perfect. The church requires something back from those requiring welfare, the government does not. The church encourages self-reliance, the government does not. I know that the day will come and we will have to live the law of concecration, but at that time everyone will do their part to contribute. I have a really hard time giving of our hard earned money to some white trash wife beater who sits at home all day just to recieve a welfare check that we gave him. The Democrats don't want the poor to succeed, think about it. They need to keep the poor poor. That is how they get elected. If it weren't for Obama's promises of a "tax cut/welfare check" to the poor there is no way he would have won.
I was not trying to belittle the church's efforts. I think the church is doing a marvelous job, but they don't at this point reach all people who need help. They just can't. There are far too many people in need, sadly.
I don't think the government does a perfect job but I would be ashamed to get rid of food stamps, medicaid, medicare, and CHIP. They are life savers to people who have no other safety net and often don't have the first clue how to be self reliant because they are broken by circumstance. (They say now that the first 8 years of life can make or break a person.) I am all for making the programs more efficient, but I never want them to vanish. I want more people to have access to good healthcare and decent food and good wages and college education. I have no trouble supporting those programs with tax money. (Currently I am in debt to those programs: 2 births, 1 pediatric surgery, 4 years of pediatric care, 2 years of obgyn care, 2 years of good food to eat, and subsidized loans and Pell grants made it possible for us to start our family and further Rob's education. I owe the government of this country a huge debt of gratitude and money.)
Again my view of self-sufficency and the role of money in my life was totally revamped and shattered and reformed after reading Approaching Zion.
The mainstream Mormon view of taxes and hard work that is so prevelant these days doesn't jive with my world view. It used to. I used to think exactly like you Sarah and Christian. Sarah, you can vouch for that. I really and truly would recommend Approaching Zion. It is marvelous. The GA's called NIbley the Prophet to the prophets. He doesn't mince words and he lays out the clear case. He gives a pretty clear picture of what God expects of us and how he thinks of wealth. He is a clear thinking amazing man who really illuminates Christ's teachings on money and work and blessings. Like I said, it really changed my life. I just wish I could more fully live up to the standards laid out.
(And Christian try your war in heaven argument out on Gay marriage and abortion).
Also Sarah, I totally reject the notion that Dems don't want the poor to succeed, and that he never would have one if he didn't want to alter the tax distribution. I totally reject it. Just talk in depth with an Obama supporter some time. There is WAY more to my support of Obama than my rejection of trickle down economics. WAY MORE.
Again, Anna I totally disagree. I don't think anyone would ever try and take away benefits such as food stamps, medicaid, etc. At least, I would never say that. It saved us for 4 years. BUT there are major probelems with the system. It doesn't encourage people to better their lives. If someone goes and gets a job at Walmart they get kicked off the system. So they figure I get more money from the government than I do from working. They can't take it away, but you need to require people are earning it.
The church reaches millions and millions of people in need. After any disaster the church is sometimes one of the first organiztions in action. I would so much rather give my money to the welfare program in the church because I think the government is the worst place for my money to go. I don't trust the government with squat.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
It is nice to have the freedoms to speak our mind...lets pray that never gets taken away from us!
Wow. I have stumbled into quite a discussion.
I like the way you think and express yourself, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
OXO
D.
I just want to point out that studies this year showed that conservatives are actually more generous with their money than liberals. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/26/AR2008032602916_pf.html
The Law of Consecration is the ultimate goal and can and will be implemented with perfect leadership (Christ as our ultimate governor) and a more perfected people (when the rich and poor both understand the law). We are warned (in the Book of Mormon) about giving too much power to leaders who are flawed. Mandatory giving through taxes strips me of agency and satisfaction that I get from giving of my own will. I believe it is inconsistent with principles of self reliance and the process of developing charity if we are compelled to give taxes and not allowed to give when we don't have to.
I still love you Anna :) and respect your passion. We're just all wired differently!
Danielle, I totally agree with some of your points. (Taxes aren't charity in my mind. Charity is how you love/judge your fellow men). I just don't think that we can have a country without taxes and I think some Government programs have real merit. School lunch for one. Some kids would starve without it, which is very sad. A country that has no safety net (wefare)/schools/health care/infrastructure for it's poor ends up like Liberia or the Hindu Kush regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan and that kind of poverty and ignorance is something I don't feel good about. Hence the quote: "I feel good about paying taxes. They pay for civilization."
And yes we are all wired differently!!!
Let's quickly look at abortion- (another road maybe we shouldn't go down?)Freedom and free agency was given to every human. When a person creates another human, that new human has the same rights of the human that created it. The right to life until God see their time is finished, for one. Humans don't gain freedoms at the age of accountability, leaving everything until then up to their parent. They have them from the time they are created.
For gay marriage, the war in heaven argument may or may not be the best approach...but either way, the general authorities have clearly spoken about it in the past months, are they just following 'mainstream Mormonism' too?
Lastly, the whole idea of trying to live higher laws via our highly imperfect government is so strange to me. ie, giving up your money so they can be a kind of charitable governor over everyone. And the idea of money not being 'ours' is fine. But it's God's, not the government's. Am i missing something? Is the government God's Kingdom on earth or the church?
One more thing to consider. There are many charities that will go bankrupt. There are many deserving recipients who depend on those charities... That is sad to me! I hope Obama will prove me wrong. I hope he will be more moderate. But it is like saying the sky is blue when it is raining outside. We can only judge on his past and frankly his past terrifies the heck out of me. I am done talking now!
Wow, Christian, I just listened to Pres. Benson's talk that you posted here. A prophetic warning that is so relevant to what we are watching unfold right now. Nobody can deny that the left wants to take us down a path towards (more) socialism. Where will it end and at what point will people say you've gone too far? There will always be more people who need hand outs. The tax burden gets heavier and heavier and with that, personal liberties are lost, people are corrupted, government excercises more control in every aspect of society. We all should be very nervous.
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